Heather “Lucky” Penney: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Aerospace Advantage
podcast, brought to you by PenFed. I’m your host, Heather, “Lucky” Penny.
Here on the Aerospace Advantage, we speak with leaders in the DOD, industry
and other subject matter experts to explore the intersection of strategy,
operational concepts, technology, and policy when it comes to air and space
power.
And today, we’re talking about the B-2. Let’s just be honest, folks. It’s a bomber
and one of the coolest aircraft ever to fly. It’s also one of the most capable ever
invented. And anyone who’s ever seen it will never forget its unique shape and
its presence. I mean, it just looks like a bird of prey. It’s one of those airplanes
that will always look futuristic, state of the art.
But there’s a catch to that. It’s hard to believe but the B-2 first flew over 35
years ago, in 1989. That’s the same year the World Wide Web was invented,
and let’s face it, back then, most of us were using phones that were bolted to the
wall, a far cry from today’s cell phone reality in the information age. But
[00:01:00] across those 35 years, the aircraft has really delivered.
The B-2 has executed a number of combat sorties, been a keystone in multiple
operations, and it continues to stand as a cornerstone of the nation’s nuclear
triad. But the aircraft on the ramp today is very different from the one that
Northrop Grumman built three decades ago.
And Northrop has teamed with the Air Force continually to modernize the
aircraft to ensure that it remains relevant and viable in today’s operational and
information world. So that’s what we’re here to discuss today. How the B-2 is
still evolving to ensure it can deliver the promise of striking any target around
the globe anytime.
And there’s no one better to discuss this than Doug Young, Sector Vice
President and General Manager for Strike at Northrop Grumman Aeronautics
Systems. His portfolio includes the B-2, the B-21 Raider, and several other
highly capable systems, most of which are classified. So, Doug, it’s awesome to
have you here.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Doug Young: Hey, Heather. I am [00:02:00] really excited to be here and share
about what we’ve been doing and really focus on B-2. I don’t often get a chance
to talk a lot about B-2, but it’s, what’s out there today. you know, when you guys
called and offered up this opportunity, I felt like it would be a real privilege to
stand here and talk about some of the great things the team’s doing.
We’ve got over 7000 people that get up every morning focused on our mission
of delivering systems that. Can operate and deliver capabilities in the non
permissive and highly contested environment. And, part of how we do this do
that is across our portfolio of these types of systems. We learn from each other
about how sustainment needs to work.
In the field, the implementation digital threads, how do we produce these kind
of aircraft? Because we’ve got systems in all different phases of the life cycle.
So, we take that responsibility seriously. And ultimately, all that is manifesting
in what today, you know, as the B-2 and the B-21.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: That’s amazing. I love how you’re talking about the
crosstalk and we will [00:03:00] definitely get to that a little bit later in this
episode. The B-2, I mean, that is really a cornerstone of our nation’s capability
to shape and deter. I mean, it can hold any target anywhere around the globe at
risk at any time.
So, I’m a fangirl, love the B-2, even though I flew pointy nosed jets. Um, But
really grateful that that is still in our inventory and I firmly believe that even as
we onboard B-21 and we need them as fast as we can get them and as many as
we can get, we have to retain the B-2 within the inventory because of its range,
its unique capabilities and its payloads.
So thanks again so much for coming to speak with us about the B-2.
Doug Young: You’re welcome.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: We also just had you on a panel at our Airpower
Futures Forum a few weeks ago so you’re pretty much a Mitchell regular by
now. Your candor, the information, it was fantastic. And we’re really pleased
that you’re here to spend more time with us. After all with the B-2 and the B-21,
you have one of the coolest air power portfolios in the industry. So to set the
stage for the B-2 modernization [00:04:00] discussion, can you help our
listeners understand what the state of the art looked like when the B-2 was first
developed and fielded?
I mean, you joined Northrop back in 1985, and you were a young engineer on
the program, but a lot of folks don’t realize that what the state of the art then
really, um, was advanced, and at the same time, when we look retrospectively,
constrained based on what we can do today. So I really want folks to understand
how far the B-2 has come.
Doug Young: Yeah, that’s a great question. And yeah, the, forum, uh, was
really, a lot of fun to interact with our customers on an important topic. Very
timely. But, you know, if you really roll the camera back or the clock back to,
the mid eighties, recall that we were in the midst of the Cold War.
that’s about the time I came out of college and started. On the B-2 when it was
at its CDR. So I had the opportunity to be on that program from the CDR
through the rollout, the 1st flight into the ultimately the 1st, delivery and during
that evolution, which really [00:05:00] was part of a change to how we design
aircraft of the time, B-2 being revolutionarily different in its shape. We had to
control the shape of that aircraft very precisely. The wingspan was 172 feet. We
had to control that within half an inch. Curvature was dictated by very precise
models of how electromagnetic waves behave when they encountered a shape.
So, if you recall, the F-117 was a faceted shape, very flat.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Those flat panels, yeah, yeah.
Doug Young: It was easier to model, and less computing power, as that aircraft
went through its evolution, more computing power became possible, these giant
Cray computers, they used to call them, that gave us the ability to
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah, I remember this.
Doug Young: Yeah, they gave us the ability to process these, equations that,
describe that behavior and implement them into the shape of the airplane, which
then drove us to the [00:06:00] manufacturing and design approach, which had
to be to control. The shape from the outer mold line in and develop all our
tooling from that shape very precisely. So 3d tools were a key element of that.
So computer aided design was there at the time and two dimensions, but we
were the first program in the industry to go to three dimensions.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah. you developed CADCAM to, B-2, right? I
mean, it’s really, the B-2 is one of the first instantiations of real digital
engineering very early, as you said, but there’s no way you could have achieved
the precision, the curvature, and really the, LO signature of the B-2 if you hadn’t
had that kind of processing and software and modeling.
Doug Young: That’s correct. In addition to controlling the shape and the
manufacturing process with a whole new approach, we also had to rethink how
do you design all the features on the aircraft so that they don’t reflect radar?
How do antennas pop out? how do you do the windows? [00:07:00] How do
you do all those critical features? Those had to be done in an entirely different
way. And then finally, the whole realm of materials and processes. There were
over 500 materials and processes had to be developed to give the aircraft its
ability to operate most effectively with those electromagnetic waves to either
absorb them or allow them to pass over the aircraft and in a non reflective way.
So a whole host of material developments had to occur that are still, you know,
evolving today over 30 years to the future. Ultimately this lead to the most
sustainable and survivable capabilities that are manifest in our 6th generation
platforms
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Like the B-21, which we can talk about. But this is
again about the B-2.
So, as you mentioned, the design of the physical airframe was incredibly
challenging, was the first instantiation of digital engineering, required the
invention of new materials, new processes, um, new models, uh, new tooling. I
mean, [00:08:00] really, it was a major leap forward, but the other piece of the
B-2’s capabilities were its mission systems and the associated processing, right?
I mean, a lot of folks are only now beginning to realize that like swap C, the
size, weight, processing power, cooling, like all of those are physical attributes
of an aircraft. And for the B-2, because it was going alone and unafraid deep
into the Soviet territory, had to have all of this technology and mission
operations, all of these systems organically embedded on the aircraft.
Can you talk more about how this, impacted the B-2’s design and your
capabilities?
Doug Young: Yeah, I mean, you’re exactly right. Um, it is a very self contained
aircraft and in general, these aircraft that do these kind of missions need to be.
However, what’s been happening over the last 30 years as we’ve evolved and
developing protected communication means, and evaluated how we can best
connect these aircraft to off board [00:09:00] sources so that we can get in flight
updates, rather than maybe doing them over a radio and, doing them verbally
and trying to punch them in or using a different set of cards for different
situations and doing a lot of manual work, we can now do those in a machine to
machine, format.
And so the B-2 is, well on the path to being able to do that. And, actually, uh,
we’ve done some recent testing and are implementing that on B-2 today. So, uh,
really proud of that breakthrough because it’s going to offer a lot more
efficiency and effectiveness for our warfighters.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: That’s fantastic. I mean, the B-2 and the direction
that you’re taking it in is really kind of the best of both worlds because it still
has its organic capability to close kill chains on its own. But because it now has
that connectivity and that machine to machine data transfer, you can be part of
the family of systems in the system of systems.
Doug Young: That’s correct.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: So, the B-2 has been making a lot of history
throughout its entire life cycle. I mean, for example, it was the first airplane to
ever employ a JDAM, so [00:10:00] a GPS guided bomb in combat. That was
during Kosovo. And some of its other missions have set major endurance
records. That has to be a source of pride for you and your team.
Doug Young: Yeah, it is. I mean, these pilots are amazing. You know, they,
live in the Midwest and in Missouri and they, take off from Whiteman Air
Force Base and they fly missions. All over the globe without landing. I mean,
they refuel a couple of times and they return home and they go home and mow
the lawn, probably after sleeping for a while.
But, you know, the fact is the long endurance of the aircraft is solid, 30 to 40
hour type missions have happened and it’s all inherent to the robustness of the
design. And really part of our modernization effort along those lines, Heather
has been focused on weapons. I mean, And that’s really important, obviously,
because that’s the business end of what we’re trying to deliver.
And so, you know, in addition to JDAM, you know, we’ve implemented, onto
the platform, the Massive Ordnance Penetrator, the [00:11:00] GBU-57, the
JASM and the JASM ER, which is the, uh, as you know, probably the AGM158 and then, uh, we’re in the process of, working on to the platform GBU-72.
And, if you recall, at the forum, I mentioned the fact that there’s a whole new
wave of weapons being developed by the Air Force for these type of missions
because, uh, you want to have, weapons that are also compatible with some of
these, uh, more unique and sophisticated missions that we’re asking our, uh,
penetrating force to do. And addition, as well, recently, we had that mission in
Yemen that the Secretary of Defense talked about several weeks ago, uh, which
was the most recent operational, utilization of B-2. So it’s, it’s alive and well
and, performing missions every day.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Well, and nothing sends a message like B-2,
because there’s really nothing that you can do to stop that aircraft.
And that’s one of the reasons why it’s so core, not only to our nuclear deterrence
in the triad, but really, frankly, our ability to shape and deter [00:12:00] around
the world conventionally. so the B-2, I think, is an essential capability that we
have to retain and continue to modernize within the force. And to be this
strength in this powerhouse, and I do believe in peace through strength, the B-2
has evolved a lot over the years.
The last one rolled off the line in 1997, and if you asked me, I think we should
have built a lot more of them. We only bought 20. We should have bought at
least 120 to 180. Um, but as I understand that, that’s my own personal opinion.
Um, but as I understand it, there have been a lot of upgrades, a series of
upgrades that have impacted everything from the stealthy coding to the radar.
So could you talk us through the progression of those modernization efforts?
You mentioned, um, how you’re advancing weapons. But what are some of the
other modernization efforts that the Air Force is pursuing?
Doug Young: Yeah, we really look at this accross an integrated roadmap of
capabilities. So we focus on comms and weapons.
So no comms, no bombs is what we say. [00:13:00] I mentioned some of the
things we’re doing in comms. There’s also lot of things going on, as you know,
in terms of the space comms networks that are going up that will provide
additional opportunities to start to tie in systems like this. So comms and
weapons and talked about those.
The survivability of the platform. So, we’ve gone through several iterations over
the last 30 years of modifying, refining the material systems on the aircraft to
make them more robust for sustainment purposes for operations and
sustainment and more durable, but then also to make, step increases in the
signature of the overall platform.
So there’s a lot you can do over time to the exterior of the aircraft to improve
that. And then finally, being able to sustain the aircraft, not just the material
systems, but on the hardware end, where are some of the things that are our
frequent failure elements? What things are going? Diminishing suppliers.
That’s a big part of our thrust. So comms and weapons, [00:14:00] survivability
and then ultimately sustainability is key so we can drive up the availability
numbers for the platform and make as many of those 20 aircraft ready to go to
war every while we continue to refine and maintain them, and keep them flying.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah, and I’m so grateful that you’re focused on the
sustainment piece because we need to retain the B-2 within the active inventory
for as long as possible. We’ve got to make sure that we ramp up B-21, but we
can’t let go of B-2 because that is so core and so unique in terms of its reach and
its payload.
Um, and as you, as you go deep into bad guy land, as you are also connecting
the aircraft through advanced communications, you’re enhancing the operational
success and viability of the rest of the force. So let’s talk about this new wave of
B-2 modernization. The B-21, which is kind of like the B-2’s baby sister, she’s
garnered a lot of attention, but the reality is that America’s first stealth bomber
is going to be on Air Force flight lines for several years into the future.
Take care. it’s going to take a while for the B [00:15:00] 21 to work through its
test program and gain initial operational capability. Plus, that’s very different.
IOC is very different from being fully mission capable. And we need to have
the aircraft in sufficient numbers, so it has to be there on the field, capable of
taking off and employing in operations in meaningful numbers.
And the build rate takes time, especially if we don’t advance it to the maximum
that we can get. So, we’ve got to have the B-2 on the line for as long as we
possibly can.
Doug Young: Absolutely. And, and the way we look at it and the way we talk
about this with our customers is we need to maintain the full operational
capability of B-2 and that includes nuclear and conventional until the B-21 can
come in line in sufficient numbers.
to address again, the nuclear and conventional mission and so, in that vein, then
keeping the B-2 capable and relevant as the threat continues to move towards us
is really what we focus on in the modernization. And again, in the comms arena
with the, battlefield collaborative combat [00:16:00] communication framework
that within which I mentioned one of the connectivity items that we have is
there, uh, Continuing to evolve on survivability, continuing to drive up the
availability so that B-2 continues to be robust to deal with both nuclear and
conventional as B-21 comes along and comes on in numbers.
So, we’ve got a few years to be doing that and these modernization efforts are
maintaining that relevance. to accomplish that goal.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah, we’ve gotta make sure we’ve got the B-2, uh,
fully mission capable and is available as possible until B-21 is fully mission
capable and can really take hold of the nuclear piece of that triad, as well as
have enough numbers to be able to achieve the capacity, and the, density that
the attack density that we need in combat.
So one of the upgrades that really caught my attention this summer, was the
Spirit Realm initiative. As I understand it, this ties to an open mission systems
architecture that allows for far more rapid responsive [00:17:00] upgrades to the
B-2. Can you walk us through what this means and what the different elements
of the Spirit Realm is?
Doug Young: Yeah, Spirit Realm, we’re really proud of that. the team received
an Air Force award for that actually, in standing that up. And it’s actually not
something that goes on the airplane. It’s an environment. Think of it as a
software development environment that, uh, is built around our digital
ecosystem.
And it actually was derived from the same way we’re approaching things as we
stood up B-21 in this era of, Agile software development. And how do you
apply that then to a, um, weapons system grade environment with its multiple,
uh, certification requirements and the need for agility and leverage commercial
tools that are out there that have evolved in the last 20 years in the, in the
evolution of all the, all the information systems that we have commercially
available.
How do you apply those in a weapon system environment? And that’s what
Spirit Realm is. And it allows us to [00:18:00] rapidly update software rather
than taking a year or more and even numbers of months. We can get it down to
weeks and single digit months to in order to be able to make those modifications
quickly.
So it makes us more agile and bringing capabilities on to B-2, even though it
was developed 30 years ago. This is also enabled by the fact that we have sort
of retroactively incorporated the concept of an open mission system architecture
by segregating the mission software features from the flight software features so
that when we make a change to the mission, we aren’t touching anything and
how the airplane flies, which brings with it its own airworthiness constraints.
So that separation, if you will, has given us another big enabler to that agility
that operates inside of that Spirit Realm ecosystem of software development,
capability development.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: That makes a lot of sense. I mean, it seems like a
key element for this upgrade, you [00:19:00] mentioned, was separating out the
flight architecture from the mission system architecture.
And so then, um, because you now have this separated and segregated mission
system architecture you can rapidly upgrade that without impacting the
airworthiness certification or having to go through all of additional flight tests to
validate that new mission capability isn’t going to cause any safety of flight
issue for the B-2.
Doug Young: Exactly. And in fact, you know, that was enabled really by a
hardware change that was for another reason, which was we had to replace the
displays in the B-2.
The platform. So obviously display technology has evolved a lot in the last 30
years. So, we basically had done a modification that started several years ago to
bring on the latest, commercial type technology and, and incorporated into B-2.
We’re actually just about complete with the, the flight testing on that.
It’s gone very well. And by making that implementation, we were [00:20:00]
touching the system in a way that gave us the opportunity to create this portal in
which to segregate, mission systems from flight systems. So it was really
enabled by a hardware change that was a major modification of the aircraft and
we were able to enact that open mission system architecture philosophy with
that.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: That’s really impressive ’cause that was gonna be
one of my other questions is how did you have to change the processing? So the
core computer, if you will, uh, to enable you to then install this open mission
systems because a lot of the hardware and these older processors didn’t have the
ability to host the advanced software and certainly not in this kind of open
mission systems kind of way.
Doug Young: Yeah, and actually, it’s really cool because, we’re actually now
with these more modern displays, which have better color features.
I you’re a pilot, uh, you know what it’s like to interact with that screen and. so
now we have the latest visualization method, all the same physical features. We
didn’t change the way the cockpit was laid out and the buttons or anything, but
we changed the way. [00:21:00] The information is presented and we’ve been in
the B-21 realm, we’ve been doing a lot of work on how to show the mission
behaviors and the off board sensing information in a way that’s more beneficial
to the pilot.
We can now start lifting out some of those elements that are relevant for B-2
and incorporating those on those displays. So it’s really, again, one of those
synergy elements that’s a manifestation of going to this Agile software
environment, while at the same time, bringing our displays up to speed and
making it look and feel more like a modern aircraft.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: I love the fact that you’re really looking at how the
vehicle and its displays interact with the human pilot, because how that
information is presented to the human, to the pilot and their operators. Operators
is really an important element of operational effectiveness because human
cognition, I believe, in the forward edge of the battle space will continue to be
our asymmetric advantage, especially when we do this human machine teaming
with the platform that we’re [00:22:00] interfacing with.
So I love your approach there and also that you’re leveraging your investments
in B-21 back into B-2 and you’re taking investments in B-2 and forwarding,
those lessons learned into B-21. So is this also decreasing overall cost in terms
of modernization, development, sustainment across both platforms?
Doug Young: Yes, absolutely. Now that we’re able to cut the cycle time down
by so much and get away from having to certify the aircraft every time we make
a change, we’re able to do these changes much more affordably.
So, it really drives a big affordability advantage. to make, changes more rapidly,
and it’s ultimately going to enable us to do things like integrate on new weapons
much more efficiently because, rate of evolution with weapons is, as I
mentioned earlier, fairly fast now, driven by the environment. And being able to
put new weapons on B-2 is going to be a key, outgrowth of some of these new
[00:23:00] digital methods we’re implementing onto B-2.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: I love how, um, this environment, this ecosystem
of Spirit Realm allows you to agily accelerate the iterations of software
development and field that more quickly because I have long said that the, the
third offset is really about time.
Whoever can iterate and field more quickly, whoever can adapt to the battle
space more quickly will have that combat advantage. And that’s exactly what
you’re providing to the B-2. So, this also then ties into DoD’s DevSecOps
processes, the development, security, and operations of software development.
Can you help our audience understand what that really means because you were
a DevSecOps pathfinder as far as the nuclear triad goes, right?
Doug Young: Yes, absolutely. And we passed, all that knowledge on to, you
know, the Sentinel program is it’s stood up. and so, yeah, we’re very proud of
being that pathfinder and have been learning a lot as we’ve gone through that
process. So a little bit about what that is. What is [00:24:00] DevSecOps? It’s
really It’s a label for what I mentioned earlier is, is this agile software
development environment that allows you within a multi security level,
framework, deliver weapon system grade, uh, software evolution, which
requires a lot of checks and balances as a function of certifications.
We have numerous certifications, not the least of which is nuclear and
airworthiness that we have to certify as we evolve and develop software. I
mentioned that we’ve been able to segregate airworthiness. That’s good, but,
DevSecOps really applies even if we were going to make a flight software
change.
It’s really that process and that discipline, instrumenting the process so that we
know every aspect of how that software is being developed. Again, the
commercial world has been doing this for a while, but it’s never really been
brought into this kind of environment. And that’s really the breakthrough, and
that’s really what DevSecOps is and DevSecOps means to [00:25:00]
contemporary weapon system development.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah, the Air Force has been working on
DevSecOps, uh, for a while. They’ve got their own agile software development
factories, um, like Kessel Run up in Boston. but I’d like to differentiate what
they’re doing from what you mentioned specifically, the weapon system grade
certification. Can you describe how actually employing and putting this agile
software, um, process into a weapon system, how that’s different than say, like
business IT.
Doug Young: Yeah, I think it’s, having the rigor, traceability, and involvement
of the stakeholders in that process. So the certification processes, many of them
have been around for many, many years. And they were had never been
involved in that kind of software development. So they have to fundamentally
understand how that process works. So a lot of work went in on the front end
for us to bring those stakeholders in, make them part of the process so that as
we put our software builds out and certified them, they [00:26:00] were in the
game with us, shoulder to shoulder, such that when it came out the other end,
everyone could be confident meeting their certification requirements.
And so over time, we’ll be able to get into a much more repetitive pattern where
we no longer will need to be those additional checks and balances. So it’s been
an evolution and it requires a high degree of stakeholder involvement on the
front end to make sure everyone understands the process and that is robust to
the kind of things that can cause issues down the road.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah, and also, I mean, you’re driving towards a
much more rigorous level of quality because you can’t have that blue circle of
death up when you’re flying and penetrating into bad guy land. So we can’t be
dealing with nightly debugging types of issues. We have to ensure that when
you install that new software drop into the mission system that there are no bugs
at all.
Doug Young: Exactly. And in fact, I am proud to say that what we’re finding is,
that the process is working extremely well. I mean, if you look at the number of
discrepancies, [00:27:00] we’re finding in flight test when we take the diplays
out into Edwards and gone through the process of, going through flight
certification with those we’ve, we’ve had very few discrepancies, which, for a
modification of that magnitude, is really exceptional. And so the process is
proving itself out with fewer discrepancies and better quality in the software.
And more efficiency in developing the software and more flexibility in
incorporating features that bring operational capability rather than having to
oversimplify in order to just deliver the bill.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah, um, because delivering the bill is a lot more
when you’re talking about delivering capability to the airmen that are flying and
maintaining the B-2. Because this ultimately comes down to how mission
effective, how survivable the Um, will the B-2 be for the young men and
women that are flying this aircraft into bad guy land, executing the missions that
our nations has asked of them, and then their ability to [00:28:00] be able to
come home safely.
So how will their lives change under this new paradigm?
Doug Young: Well, I think it’s, uh, a lot of it’s incremental in a collective way,
which is they’re seeing a platform that even a few years ago did not have the
kind of comms connectivity that, they’ve been used to in the previous, decades.
They’re seeing, a level of survivability that’s enabled them to do new things in
the mission, mission capability wise and, where they can go and what they can
do. The weapons, adaptability, now they’re being able to, have a more versatile
ability to add weapons to the aircraft, which in the past has not been the case.
It’s been very monolithic.
And then finally, most importantly, really, where the rubber meets the road is in
the availability of the aircraft and its robustness in terms of not having to come
back because it’s non mission capable now, because you’ve got a failure on
board. It’s having that robustness to failures and also having the ability to turn
the [00:29:00] aircraft around more quickly so you can get back into training or
back into operational missions.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Exactly. And for our listeners, some of you might
not realize that the quality of the coding and the materials, and the structure of
the aircraft, even though the airplane might still be flyable, if those coatings do
not meet certain thresholds that impacts the survivability and therefore the
mission capability of the aircraft.
So, that’s another important piece, I think, of the upgrades and sustainment that
you’re doing in making the vehicle more sustainable is that the B-2 now has
more robust, and more resilient coatings to ensure that it’s got that mission
capability for the types of missions that we’re demanding of it, right?
Doug Young: Yes, exactly. I mean, you point out surface treatments. Um,
absolutely critical. The smallest defect can light up like a flashlight on the, on
the radar. So attention to detail is critical, but our job is to make that material
system as robust as [00:30:00] possible. And that’s been a big part of the
modernization. Um, and then in ease of maintenance, and ultimately we want,
something like the B-2 that was developed 30 years ago to get as close as
possible to being a daily flyer, if you will, so it can be turned around quickly,
uh, and get back into the action.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah, because with as few B-2s as we bought, and
we prematurely terminated that production line, we, we had always needed
more than just 20. We need those 20 aircraft to fly as much as we possibly can
to be able to get the utilization and the sorority rates out of them. And frankly,
also to provide the training and in an operational context, the mission
effectiveness, because there are things that the B-2 that note can do that no other
platform in the U.S. inventory can do across any of the Services.
So you mentioned, um, you know, new communications, we’ve got now
advanced avionics, you’re, integrating new types of weapons on this. How does
this change how you envision the B-2 being employed versus what we might
have seen in the past decades?
Doug Young: [00:31:00] Well, I think you’re going to see, uh, well, you
probably won’t see it because, you know, how the aircraft is employed,
obviously, is, uh, very sensitive.
I think when you look at this, portfolio of modernization initiatives and other
things we’ve been doing on the platform, it’s really about giving it that mission
versatility as, as a platform goes into harm’s way. And one of the things we
didn’t talk about when we talked about survivability, the platform shape and
capability is, is critical at multiple levels as far as its survivability.
But the other big part of survivability is how you fly the mission. And how you
mission plan, but how you mission plan and your ability to take on new
information that informs your mission plan as you’re conducting that mission
plan is, you know, it’s all about situational awareness. So, I think when you look
at the, the comms type, modifications and other sensor things we might have
done.
That gives you the ability to [00:32:00] adapt once you’re conducting the
mission and then in the weapons realm, more sophisticated weapons that are
able to operate at different ranges are able to operate in different, non
permissive environments. Uh, those kinds of things will enable more flexibility
to that pilot who’s going into harm’s way and trying to conduct that mission plan
and be able to, uh, react and respond, by, employing different weapons as the
situation may require, given, scenarios.
The other component of it is PDM, our, depot maintenance cycle, uh, you know.
We take each of the aircraft every 10 years through, A depo maintenance cycle
out in Palmdale.
So all our programs are built, maintained, sustained, out there in Palmdale, an
exciting place. You’ve come out and check it out. Sometimes Heather, it’s pretty
amazing what we’ve got going on and on in Palmdale, In the case of B-2, we
generally have a couple of aircraft there that [00:33:00] are in that process
where they go through and we, we strip the coatings and we replace some of the
key LRUs. We do a lot of refurbishment and we’ve gotten that cycle down.
Most recently, we had our fastest delivery cycle in over 6 years. So we’re really
proud of what the team’s doing there. Spirit of Nebraska, Nebraska. came out,
uh, the fastest in six years and so increasing efficiency and manufacturing,
taking on, different ways of, conducting the, refurbishment process, but overall
driving to a higher level of efficiency is another component of kind of this
modernization journey, is all aimed at driving up availability of B-2s with the
latest capabilities.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah, because if they’re sitting in depot, they’re not
available to go fly missions You know in what you mentioned regarding the
dynamic signature management in real time as you’re going through combat,
you know operational execution a lot of folks might not realize but like for
example, you take the F-117 our first stealth platform. They spent a lot of
[00:34:00] time mission planning. They understood where the threats were. And
then they would figure out how would they fly their ingress and egress so that
they could really minimize their signature as those threats could see and detect
them because stealth doesn’t make you invisible. It just make you super hard to
see. And but once the F-117 got airborne it couldn’t change because it had no
situational awareness to either identify how the threats moved or their new pop
up threats and therefore they couldn’t respond in real time to manage their
signature presentation. And they also didn’t have, um, the weapons that would
allow them to be able to respond to that.
So these are all things that, again, as you’re evolving the B-2, you’re putting
onto that platform, really to make it a dynamic, platform that can respond in real
time to signature manage, and really, improve its survivability and then mission
effectiveness as a consequence. I think that’s awesome. So, as we go forward
and we look towards the future of the B-2, how should [00:35:00] we grade
your homework?
Doug Young: B-2, being, uh, as mature as it is, is very visible. People know
and can see, what’s going on. But I think, the important thing to, to watch for is,
new weapons coming online, new capabilities like I’ve described relative to
comms. I think, the amount of, global deployments that you see, uh, the profile
of the B-2 is increasing, over the past couple of years, obviously due in large
part to the geopolitical environment and threat that we all see globally. So I
think you’ll see more visible, utility of, B-2 and, uh, that adaptation of weapons
and comms, are the key elements that will be visible to the outside, outside
world.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Oh, fantastic. You know, all the guys, and women
that have flown the B-2, uh, they just, they love the spirit.
So, what are you transfer, what are your lessons learned you’re transferring
forward into B-21? We’ve talked a lot about how you are [00:36:00] iteratively
moving back and forth in terms of capabilities and technologies and software.
But what other lessons learned are you applying from the B-2 modernization
journey to the B-21?
Doug Young: Yeah, I mean, we’ve been talking about a number of those, but I
think if you really think about it as basics, having built the B-2s in the 80s and
then operated them for 30 years and done many other things in between. It’s that
foundation of knowledge across the realm of how you sustain them, how you
design and model them so that you’re confident in their performance when they
get into harm’s way.
All those elements have been brought forward into the realm of B-21. I think
we’ve talked about a few good examples here. in terms of the daily flyer
element. I mentioned that briefly before, but we have really taken that to a new
level here on B-21 by making it, effectively able to operate on a daily basis,
able to be turned around quickly without a lot of hand work or [00:37:00]
touching or maintenance and get back out into the fight or get back out into,
training missions. It taught us a lot about building in affordability. Uh, the
affordability element is critical if you’re going to build these platforms in,
numbers, of course. And so having built a complex flying wing for flying these
missions, uh, with lots of composite materials and, the sophisticated nature of,
of many of the features of that aircraft, really rolling it forward to a sixth
generation platform that is the B-21 today is built on that foundation of
knowledge from B-2.
I mean, I can certainly speak from personal experience having worked 10 years
on the B-2, but, you know, our workforce has a lot of people that have been
doing this for quite a number of years and have grown up on these programs,
coming up to the present. So we feel confident we know where the risks are, uh,
that is starting to bear out as we’ve been testing, the B-21 and so far so good on,
on how the aircraft is maturing and moving into production. [00:38:00]
But again, built on those same lessons learned, many of the same processes, but
improved for using contemporary and commercially available tools that are
really part of that digital transformation. So, the digital transformation, as you
mentioned, goes back to really in the 80s, where we went into the 3D design
realm. And we’ve had these design tools for a lot of years. We’ve had the data,
but in the commercial world, many things have been developed for other
purposes, like, something we call a highly immersive virtual environment. It’s
using virtual reality in order to be able to visualize how to maintain the aircraft
or agile software as has been mentioned. Many of these tools, are well proven
now commercially, but we’ve been bringing them into this military grade if you
will, design environment and leveraging them, to make this really, truly a 6th
generation, platform, that being the B-21.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah, she’s got the right pedigree. I’ll tell you that.
I get that this part is sensitive, but as best as you’re able to discuss it, what will
the B-21 be able to [00:39:00] accomplish from a technical perspective that
might just be a bridge too far for the B-2? I mean, the upgrades that you and
your team are executing on the B-2 are incredibly impressive, but there are
some core facets that tie back to the limiting factors from the 1989 design, uh,
and you don’t face those realities of the B-21, it’s a totally different technical
baseline. So can you share with us some pieces of that?
Doug Young: I think the way I would answer that. I mean, that’s obviously very
sensitive as you said, but I think if you really, think about the comparison in
technology from the realm of the 80s to the present. As a 6th generation,
platform that we’ve got in -B-21, we’ve baked in from the start open mission
system architecture.
So I think connectivity is at a whole another level for something future like B21.
You can also consider, Looking at it, like, actually, there’s an example I’ve used
before. It’s kind of fun if you think about it. But if you get into your, dad’s,
[00:40:00] uh, 65 Mustang and you drive it and you look at the dashboard and
you understand the kind of the push buttons for the radio and the three on the
tree with the shifter.
And you look at sort of the simplicity of the design and how what the interface
is. That’s really going back to the era of A’s and B-2 and then you fast forward
to today and 6th generation platform if you get into a Tesla, it might have
updated the software overnight and you’re looking at a new display format,
from, uh, an evolutionary viewpoint that rapid evolvability.
The B-2 is, is evolvable, much more evolvable than it ever was, but it’s nowhere
near what we’re going to be able to do with the contemporary platforms that
incorporate these kind of features of open architectures, um, the software
development realm coupled together with all these other. Features that we’ve
incorporated. So that’s how I would try to describe it.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: That’s a great description because the B-21 will
essentially be a software defined platform. Um, [00:41:00] whereas the B-2 be
based off of the era that it was designed in, we upgraded modernized via
hardware. And now where you are at with the B-2, you’re kind of doing a little
bit of both worlds. So this is in no way, your grandpa’s, you know, B-2. Very,
very capable and will be capable, uh, and even more so into the future. So we
need to continue to maintain the B-2 within our inventory. But the B-21 is going
to be a step function of capability.
Doug Young: Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. Function is a good way to put it.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: You know, it’s, we, we call that the B-2, the Spirit,
but I like to think of it as our adversaries’ nightmare. You know, thanks again
for taking the time today. .
Doug Young: We, like to think that we’re pacing the threat, right?
Heather “Lucky” Penney: No, we are, we are the pacing threat. And I think
folks need to remember that, uh, you know, around the world, we no longer
have, uh, the, the monopoly on, on advanced technologies and capabilities, but
our engineers, our manufacturing workforce, uh, our industry is still [00:42:00]
by far the best in the world. And we need to remember that we are the pacing
threat, not China.
So again, thanks for your time today. And, just to remind the audience, the B-2
is here and it needs to be here to stay for a long time. I mean, it still remains
relevant in combat now and the modernization and the upgrades you’re making
will continue to make it incredibly lethal in the future if for global reach and
global power.
So there are times when range payload and survivability or linchpin and the B-2
has delivered and it will continue to deliver. You know, Doug, any, uh, any last
thoughts or parting shots? ?
Doug Young: No, I just, uh, just extremely proud of the work we do here on
this team, uh, for these critical capabilities.
As you said at the beginning, it’s one of the coolest portfolios out there. I
certainly believe that. But the B-2 is really the beneficiary of many things that
we’ve been doing in the digital realm. And we’re proud to be pioneering those
on a legacy [00:43:00] platform while incorporating them on the future
platform, that next generation, that 6th generation.
So, we’re uniquely leveraging those innovations and those technologies, uh, to
give the warfighter a better capability, really, and faster and today so we can
pace that threat.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: Well, thank you again so much for your time and
hopefully I’ll see you in Palmdale.
Doug Young: Yeah, there you go. Thanks, Heather. All right. See ya.
Heather “Lucky” Penney: With that, I’d like to extend a big thank you to our
guests for joining in today’s discussion. I’d also like to extend a big thank you to
you, our listeners, for your continued support and for tuning into today’s show.
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